Deprecated: Function set_magic_quotes_runtime() is deprecated in /home/content/73/13971573/html/bb/common.php on line 88
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/session.php on line 821: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /common.php:88)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/session.php on line 821: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /common.php:88)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/session.php on line 821: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /common.php:88)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/functions.php on line 4209: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /common.php:88)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/functions.php on line 4211: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /common.php:88)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/functions.php on line 4212: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /common.php:88)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/functions.php on line 4213: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /common.php:88)
hiphop-elements.com • View topic - Above my pay grade...

hiphop-elements.com

It is currently 08/19/19 10:43:16 PM

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Above my pay grade...
PostPosted: 11/05/08 02:03:44 PM 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 04/17/01 05:00:00 PM
Posts: 4618
Location: Oxnard, California
After that Saddleback forum, Obama got a lot of flack from the pro-life folks about his answer to the question of when life begins being "above [his] pay grade." I never really understood it. And since someone on this board brought it up again, I thought it might warrant a little discussion.

First off, the quote that sparked this thread:

Free$peech wrote:
President Elect Barack Obama,

Let me help you stop some of this drama,

by debatin Christians,

so Christians listen like you listen to the Dali Lama talk about change in China

give the mission permission for peace, follow the mantra

put seeds in the Tonka ‘ratha’ than go ‘afta’ Osama

bcuz you can’t deny Karma

and he too will face Allah

then waste no more time remembering this trauma

including spending another dollah seeking revenge while in Nebraska babies ‘holla’

“where you goin’, don’t drop me off momma,”

I ask yah, President Obama,

turnover Roe V Wade

in exchange for military spending swayed toward the underpaid

so solicit your spirit Christians cuz this is a fair trade

and President Elect, since not knowing when conception begins is “above your pay grade”

then let the people at the state level decide that “no more violent hands” upon the unborn be laid

for the unborn be brave


First off, why is overturning Roe v Wade a Christian issue? I'm sorry but I don't think that being against the right to a legal abortion necessarily follows from a faith in Christ. Nor would I accept the premise that it is the Christian position that life begins at conception.

In fact, from a theological standpoint, I think that the notion that a fertilized egg is ensouled and thus becomes an individual, entitled to full human rights, at the moment of conception is nonsensical if you take into account what actually goes on in the early stages of pregnancy. Peep game:

Neil Schoenherr wrote:
Since Donum Vitae several Catholic moral theologians have noted that the fertilized egg at the blastosphere stage is not a physical individual until it is restricted by implantation in the wall of the uterus. This does not happen for about two weeks after fertilization. The early cell group can split into twins, etc., or split and be reabsorbed by the original set of cells. This argues for delayed ensoulment like Aristotle's. Those who uphold the immediate infusion of the soul at conception are forced into the rather irrational position of having God infuse billions of souls at conception and then immediately discarding the cells that bear them.


And biology aside, what is the scriptural basis for the claim that life begins at conception? If the notion that life begins at conception is a tenet of Christianity, certainly we should be able to find evidence of it in scripture.

And what about evidence to the contrary? More to the point, how do you reconcile the notion that ensoulment happens at the moment of conception with the fact that, in Exodus, the penalty for ending a woman's pregnancy is not death, which is the penalty for murder, but a fine.

Quote:
If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. (Exodus 21:22)


Certainly, if it were so obvious that life begins at conception and that the rights of an unborn child are therefore equal to those of any other individual, then the penalty for killing a fetus would be the same as killing a woman--death. But according to Exodus, they are not equal and the penalties are not the same.

Furthermore, I think that if you accept the claim that the unborn are entitled to the same rights as everyone else, even in the very early stages of pregnancy, then you're forced to accept some illogical positions. In his endorsement of now president elect Obama, former Reagan speech writer Jeffery Hart noted:

Jeffery Hart wrote:
Both Obama and McCain support federal funding of embryonic stem-cell research, Obama more urgently. The conservative movement publications, following Bush, have been fiercely opposed. Such opposition required a belief that a cluster of cells (the embryo) the size of the period at the end of this sentence is as important (more important?) than a seriously ill human being.

I myself cannot fathom such a mentality.


Nor can I. However, that mentality follows logically from the belief that ensoulment happens at the moment of conception.

That said, the notion that an individual isn't entitled to any human rights until after they physically leave their mother's womb is equally ridiculous. I find it very hard, for example, to argue that late term abortions should be considered morally or even legally acceptable, except in cases where the life or health of the mother is jeopardized by carrying the pregnancy to term (and even then, it's a tough question from a moral standpoint).

Thus, I believe it follows that one is entitled to full human rights at some point after conception but before birth. I do not claim to know when that point is and I would be highly skeptical of people who do. And if you do, I would love to hear your reasoning and scriptural evidence.

So I really don't see what the big deal is about Obama holding this same position. I'm pretty sure that there's only one being that knows at which point the soul enters the body and it's not Barack Obama.

Now, as far as letting states decide the question, let me ask you this: would you support a constitutional amendment banning abortion? Do you believe that the Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2005 was constitutional? If so, then you are not really in favor of states rights. Furthermore, I think that the question of abortion is one of fetal rights vs. individual rights. And I don't think that questions of rights are really best left to state courts.

But what do you fools think?


Peace

_________________
Ya tu sabes.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Above my pay grade...
PostPosted: 11/06/08 04:07:47 AM 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 09/12/02 12:12:28 PM
Posts: 1813
Good post big doug, and I agree with what you said.

I think George Carlin said it best:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrXvDXVhqfU

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Above my pay grade...
PostPosted: 11/06/08 07:11:28 AM 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 11/05/02 09:41:11 PM
Posts: 7067
Location: SoCal
People who take a religious stance in general, when it comes to politics, need to shut the fuck up and go to church. Its a fucking shame these clowns find it okay to take away the marriage rights of gays and lesbians. Once again, these assholes can't see they are impeding on people's human rights for sake that they can't stop Jesus from skull fucking their common sense to pieces.

_________________
Wanna Fight? Try Ultimate MUGEN!
http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Above my pay grade...
PostPosted: 11/06/08 12:49:40 PM 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 04/17/01 05:00:00 PM
Posts: 4618
Location: Oxnard, California
Yeah, that Yes on 8 shit really bothered me this time around...a lot more than when the issue came up during the last presidential election. I think it was because it was on the ballot here instead of in Ohio or some shit.

And I think their whole campaign was ridiculous, given that the main plank of the Yes on 8 argument was that the legality of gay marriage would result in elementary school students being taught about it in class. Even accepting that this is the case (it's not), their argument still doesn't make any sense given the fact that about 18,000 gay couples have already been married. Laws don't work retroactively (ex post facto is the right term, I think). So even after the law passed, and even ignoring the possibility that the law is voided on procedural grounds, the state will have to continue to recognize tens of thousands of gay marriages. And if state recognition of someone's marriage means that children will be taught about it in school, then what difference does it make whether 18,000 couples are married or 100,000? It's a stupid fucking argument.

And I don't know why we allow people to hide behind their kids when the issue we're dealing with is someone's rights under the law. Do you really mean to tell me that people should be denied the right to marry by the state of California on the grounds that you don't want to have a five minute conversation with your fucking kid? Please.

_________________
Ya tu sabes.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Above my pay grade...
PostPosted: 11/06/08 01:45:32 PM 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 05/21/04 06:41:18 AM
Posts: 5626
America, land of the free!

Marriage? Not if you're gay!

Nice one.


Pardon my cynicism. I'm quite fed up with these ignorant conservatives.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Above my pay grade...
PostPosted: 11/06/08 09:30:00 PM 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 01/04/03 05:15:12 PM
Posts: 12753
As far as abortion goes im conflicted to some degree.

I absolutely agree with a womens right to choose. Hopefully if it was my woman she would confer with me and we could make that choice together.
Nothing in this world is more beautiful than my daughter. I cant fathom to w/o her. But depending on the circumstance you may have to do what you have to do.

When does life start? depends on how you look at it. Im more of a second trimester fella. I think this later term abortion shit is sick but at the same time I think we have to look at the circumstance of it. Also depending ont he when it is done unless its a huge health risk they woman should carry out and adopt.

Also I feel like to many women use abortions as a form of birth control. I dont know about yall but when I was in school we had that one chick who was rumored to have like 5 abortions. Albeit it was a rumor there are people like that in the world.
What would be so wrong to have a sort of national registry that says "sally whatshername had an aborition at clinic a on 11/06/08 due to going out to the club and running up on the bang bros dudes" Then if it becomes a pattern of abuse the doctor then could say "hey this is like your 4th abortion in x amount of years w/o a medical cause we cant do this"

I dunno man its touchy.


As far as gay marriage is concerned. I dont want my son to learn about any kind of "marriage" in school leave that to me
please. I expect the teachers to follow the curriculum and I know that isnt part of it either homo or heterosexual.
I dont necessarily agree with it but if they love someone they love someone and they have "god" given right to be happy on this earth

_________________
Black Scorcese wrote:
I could've people elbowed her in the forehead for that dumb shit,


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Above my pay grade...
PostPosted: 11/06/08 10:16:29 PM 
Offline

Joined: 08/23/08 08:36:18 PM
Posts: 309
Obama in his speech after winning the elections said to conservatives that he needs their help. I am not promoting religion or offering any point of view on abortion, I am simply suggesting that if he wants the help of conservatives, then give them the overturning of Roe V wade in exchange for conservatives allowing Obama to cut military spending.

However, I did enjoy the response but I do not think it is applicable to what I wrote. Lord Radiant, that was simply a childish rant...My post was about making a deal rather than promoting 'Jesus'.

_________________
The dissenter is every human being at those moments of his life when he resigns momentarily from the herd and thinks for himself.--
Archibald Macleish


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Above my pay grade...
PostPosted: 11/07/08 12:10:02 AM 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 04/17/01 05:00:00 PM
Posts: 4618
Location: Oxnard, California
Ah, I misinterpreted your post. But as for your "deal", I still disagree....completely.

First of all, there's no way for Obama himself to overturn Roe v Wade. It's out of his hands. Theoretically, he could try to appoint a conservative judge that he knows to disagree with Roe to replace one of the liberals, should they retire...and Stevens and Ginsberg are probably up for retirement pretty soon. But that's not likely to happen because the Democrats will have a large majority in the Senate. And they'd never confirm an openly anti-choice jurist...even if it was Obama throwing their name out there. And even if, by some chance, he was able to get one of these conservatives through, there's no way to know whether or not they would actually follow through if and when a case came before them....and that probably wouldn't happen for years even in a best case scenario. That was always my problem with people voting for McCain on the issue of life. McCain would have been very constrained in his appointments had he been elected.

Besides, even if Obama had it in his head that he should try to make this deal, I think that he could see that there is more to the courts than abortion. And usually the cats that want to overturn Roe have a lot of other interesting ideas. More cats like Scalia could do serious damage towards enacting a progressive agenda.

I think that a better way to go about reaching common ground is to do what Obama's already doing on the issue. 1.) Remind everyone that being pro-choice is not being pro-abortion. Everyone wants to see less abortion. 2.) Instead of focusing on Roe, we should turn our attention to preventing unwanted pregnancies from happening in the first case--this could mean better educational and health programs. I think that there is indeed a compromise to be found on the abortion issue.

What I don't think is that it's a good idea to sacrifice the right to choose for the sake of cutting military spending. Truth be told, we spend too much. But Obama has already talked about making cuts--I think that both he and McCain agreed that the Future Systems program could be scrapped, for example. And getting out of Iraq...or even just drawing a lot of our folks back would do a lot of good if you want less spent on military.

On a side note, a lot of these hard right types aren't really interested in deals or compromises. There's a reason that idiots like Michelle Bachman are in the House of Representatives.


Peace

_________________
Ya tu sabes.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Above my pay grade...
PostPosted: 11/07/08 01:38:53 AM 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 03/08/03 08:03:39 AM
Posts: 4258
Location: Georgia on my mind
the flawless wrote:
America, land of the free!

Marriage? Not if you're gay!

Nice one.


Pardon my cynicism. I'm quite fed up with these ignorant conservatives.


Ironically enough it just not conservatives per se. Black and Latino's are lock in step with "conservatives" on this issue. The huge turnout for Obama also help the Proposition 8 bill pass. How long before Gay & Lesbians fight back. On another note, it should be noted that McCain and Obama positions are damn near identical on Gay marriage. Time for people to admit the truth, black people will not support anyone advocating Gay Marriage. To much politicking is done in the church.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... 547S31.DTL

_________________
Image

Beware!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Above my pay grade...
PostPosted: 11/07/08 03:45:16 AM 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 05/21/04 06:41:18 AM
Posts: 5626
PlanB wrote:
the flawless wrote:
America, land of the free!

Marriage? Not if you're gay!

Nice one.


Pardon my cynicism. I'm quite fed up with these ignorant conservatives.


Ironically enough it just not conservatives per se. Black and Latino's are lock in step with "conservatives" on this issue. The huge turnout for Obama also help the Proposition 8 bill pass. How long before Gay & Lesbians fight back. On another note, it should be noted that McCain and Obama positions are damn near identical on Gay marriage. Time for people to admit the truth, black people will not support anyone advocating Gay Marriage. To much politicking is done in the church.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... 547S31.DTL

I realise it's not just conservatives, unfortunately. I don't mean to bash on anyone with conservative views btw. Believe whatever you believe, as long as you don't bother others with it, I'd say. Anyway, I am liberal (I'm sure a great deal of Americans would say extremely liberal) and I just cannot comprehend why people, in a country like America, cannot accept everyone as equals. I know what the forces behind this are, but still can't seem to get my head around it. What you pointed out is quite ironic. People vote for Obama and change, and yes on prop 8 on the same day. Bitter.

I just saw some dumb fuck on tv screaming anti-abortion shit at a bunch of lesbians... because we all know they are lining up to get an abortion. It's scary to realise people like that are allowed to vote.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Above my pay grade...
PostPosted: 11/07/08 11:48:16 AM 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 04/17/01 05:00:00 PM
Posts: 4618
Location: Oxnard, California
PlanB wrote:
the flawless wrote:
America, land of the free!

Marriage? Not if you're gay!

Nice one.


Pardon my cynicism. I'm quite fed up with these ignorant conservatives.


Ironically enough it just not conservatives per se. Black and Latino's are lock in step with "conservatives" on this issue. The huge turnout for Obama also help the Proposition 8 bill pass. How long before Gay & Lesbians fight back. On another note, it should be noted that McCain and Obama positions are damn near identical on Gay marriage. Time for people to admit the truth, black people will not support anyone advocating Gay Marriage. To much politicking is done in the church.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... 547S31.DTL


Indeed.

_________________
Ya tu sabes.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Above my pay grade...
PostPosted: 11/08/08 02:04:05 AM 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 11/05/02 09:41:11 PM
Posts: 7067
Location: SoCal
Free$peech wrote:
Obama in his speech after winning the elections said to conservatives that he needs their help. I am not promoting religion or offering any point of view on abortion, I am simply suggesting that if he wants the help of conservatives, then give them the overturning of Roe V wade in exchange for conservatives allowing Obama to cut military spending.

However, I did enjoy the response but I do not think it is applicable to what I wrote. Lord Radiant, that was simply a childish rant...My post was about making a deal rather than promoting 'Jesus'.


Hey, my statement wasn't aimed at you...I am not surprised these religious fanatics voted yes though...they practically invented the term "faggot" for what thye called homos when they burned them at the stake. These fools are hell bent. If they spent time studying the laws and logical information as much as their ghost textbook, they'd find they made a mistake. Hell, we might as well get back into persecuting them and see how they like it...maybe tax the fucking hell out of churches.

_________________
Wanna Fight? Try Ultimate MUGEN!
http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group