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hiphop-elements.com • View topic - defining truth

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PostPosted: 06/20/01 10:34:00 AM 
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In mathematics there are always formulas that equate to truth such as 2+2=4; however, man created the concept of mathematics so how can we comprehend truth when it's based on human perception. What exactly is the truth? Are there multiple versions of Truth? What evidence do we have that there is even a form of truth that all man can agree upon?


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PostPosted: 06/20/01 11:04:00 AM 
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I wouldnt say that truth requires that everyone agree on it. The problem of language would probably prohit it, or peoples' inability to relay precisely what they are getting at. (or other peoples' inability to comprehend what is being said). To me, a truth is something that proves itself to be true.


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PostPosted: 06/20/01 11:07:00 AM 
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ahh yes, but how does truth prove itself to be truth, when everything can be altered? Smoke and Mirrors, smoke and mirrors...


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PostPosted: 06/20/01 11:31:00 AM 
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well what I meant by that is,

death for example is a truth. Everything that is alive dies. This proves itself to be true.
Emotions are truths, even if they are misplaced. The emotions themselves are genuine. Survival of the fittest is a truth...


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PostPosted: 06/20/01 11:39:00 AM 
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We have the power to create a false truth that exists; every living thing on earth follows the same path to survive - truth.
Anything humans create and do outside of the earths natural parimeters is the false truth.


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PostPosted: 06/20/01 11:40:00 AM 
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yeah, but what about when even the fittest die as casualties of war or in bizarre accidents? Or what if death is merely an illusion? without further knowledge, there can be no truth...


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this has the potential to get into a discussion over semantics...
with the survival of the fittest, it's a matter of perspective. I'm stripping it to plain basics. If you kill me then you have survived and I have not. Period. (at least physically...I dont know what happens beyond that) There are infinite variables you could plug into the equation, if you get into that line of reasoning. For me, the truth is balance, which covers all aspects of existance, evolution, progression, adaptation. They all funnel into survival.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Leffield on 2001-06-20 14:52 ]</font>


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In the infinite battle of infinite opposites there can only be one winner; eventually.
The battle may take as long as possible until there's a winner. It all comes down to Humans -vs- the Earth/Nature. Whose side are you on? Did the earth create you or a male and female human?? Death is inevitable, your dying the moment your born. Nothing lasts forever - another truth. Time eventually destroys & heals everything... I'm goin on a tangent now, sorry.


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I agree with you partially, Dougall specifically about dying from your moment of birth...your time is definitely not infinite (physically).

I dont agree about the human vs earth bit, but maybe it is your wording. It's more a natural vs unnatural existance they way I see it. We might be saying the same thing. I see where you are coming from as well, Violent...


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It is my belief that the only truth is that we live within the eternal paradox of creation and destruction.

On another note though, I learned an interesting concept recently. John Mills, an early american economist revised a theory he entitled 'The Market Place of Ideas'. In short the theory is simple. We are a collective of consciousness as a species. In order to formulate an acurate perception of what a truth is, every member of that collective would have to submit their ideas into the marketplace. We then would have an accurate view at whatever the issue is becuase we have viewed it from every possible angle. However, technological developements have made it impossible for this market place to exist becuase of barriers to entry. These include but are not limited too the media, language, pysical barriers(oceans etc..) and so on. So according to Mills, we can not know the truth. Its an interesting theory.

~pax~


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That IS interesting. However, that is taking the barriers pretty literally. I agree about collective consciousness. He may be limiting himself in scope however, by assuming there are no other ways to communicate


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PostPosted: 06/20/01 02:07:00 PM 
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metaphysics?


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PostPosted: 06/20/01 07:27:00 PM 
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collective consciousness, carl jung, very thought-provoking. i don't know if i would say that mathematics is a man-made concept. there is an order to all that is defined, yet malleable. of course, all that we perceive will be "tainted" in some way, but the order of the universe is real. you should check the tao of physics by fritjof capra, one of the dopest books i've ever read.


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PostPosted: 06/20/01 07:35:00 PM 
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very different answer than i would normally expect from abacus on such inquiries

the idea of an alternate truth is merely an alternate opinion... the elements of mathmatics that man has taken hold of have laws which dictate truth as percieved by (wo)man. everything else posessing no man-made laws as far as i'm concerned are simply opinion... but thats just my opinion


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the laws of mathematics are not man-made though, they are relationships that exist in the universe. of course numbers are merely symbols representing something else and those symbols were created by man, but higher mathematics and physics are not merely equations but a set of relationships that may change in size but not in their fundamental quality. this is the essence and the oneness of the universe, infinite energy. is 2+2=4 an inalienable truth in perpetuity throughout the cosmos? no. is the relationship between the distance of two particles and their respective properties the same, depending on various conditions? i tend think so.


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PostPosted: 06/21/01 03:15:00 AM 
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i dont like to say "thats the truth" i prefer to say "thats a fact." whats the truth for me might not be the truth for you because of values, opinions, or other factors. i like to use fact because for instance if some kid in ethiopia who hasnt heard of a computer says "no, he didnt make this thread" because he might not believe in the concept of a computer (too advanced for him) thats his truth, yet it is not fact.


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PostPosted: 06/21/01 07:55:00 AM 
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hmm, this is an interesting discussion........


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PostPosted: 06/21/01 08:29:00 AM 
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Quote:
On 2001-06-20 23:54, abacus epicurious wrote:
...higher mathematics and physics are not merely equations but a set of relationships that may change in size but not in their fundamental quality...


yes. word.

to eknuf.

shouldn't truth and fact be interchangeable? maybe you mean fact and belief.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: bellabellum on 2001-06-21 11:33 ]</font>


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PostPosted: 06/21/01 09:32:00 AM 
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My definition:

Math IS truth, for it has no (opinion) only results/facts. If we could break our emotions down by number, things would be a lot simpler.

TRUTH is GOD
GOD is TRUTH

All the complexities of the universe fit into a dense numeric pattern. All are ONE.


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PostPosted: 06/21/01 11:15:00 AM 
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ah, but mathematics is an abstract form of thought used my the human mind to comprehend the patterns of the universe. Will we ever accept that our minds are not capable of ever truly separating truth from falsehood. Everything is so open to interpretation by the human mind that we can only have beliefs built upon theses and theorems...


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